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Ladies and gentlemen, the hero who's there on UFO News Radio, CFRB 1010.

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Strange days indeed.

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And in studio with me tonight for the evening is a weekly contributing editor, is his official

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title.

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David Furlott is with us.

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Joining us on the phone is Palmyro Campania.

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Palmyro works for the Department of National Defense in his hometown of Ottawa.

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He is active as the Canadian representative to NATO in the area of actual magnetics in military aircraft.

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He first became interested in UFOs back in 1966 after reading Frank Edwards book Flying Saucers

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of Serious Business and has been following the situation ever since.

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The author of the UFO files, the Canadian connection exposed and storms of controversy,

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the secret Avro-Aro files revealed.

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And he's also somewhat of an authority on the father of our first guest tonight, Robert Brockhouse

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Smith, who as you heard Dave describing a little while ago was a Canadian radio engineer

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and a ufologist.

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Palmyro, good evening and welcome back to the program.

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Yes, good to be here tonight.

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And also on the phone from his home in Ottawa is James Smith.

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James, welcome to the program.

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Good evening.

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Thank you for inviting me on.

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Thank you for coming on.

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I understand that you don't come out in public very often.

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No, for no particular reason other than that the situation has been that I've been in the

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periphery of UFO exploration over the years and I haven't had too many opportunities.

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And as we were saying, you're the son of Robert Brockhouse Smith.

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Palmyro, a very brief few moments about with Smith and some of the things that he did,

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if you would.

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Robert Smith was the broadcast engineer with the Department of Transport and in 1950 he

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was in Washington at the conference and he heard about both stories, the funny sausage

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and the fake lost very short.

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He was put in touch with an American scientist by the name of Dr. Robert Sarbacher, 33 of

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our Canadian embassy.

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Sarbacher informed Wilbert that the UFOs were real out of this planet and if there was anything

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that he was doing in his work that might contribute to the understanding of how they operated,

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principles of operation, they would welcome that input.

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Wilbert came back to Canada and put a memo together to his authorities requesting the

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establishment of a research effort into the investigation of UFOs and that he actually

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led to his setting up a UFO research station both 1953.

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He was also working in parallel with that with respect to a government sponsored project,

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Second Story, which I believe had begun around 1952.

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He was a key member of that community as well, kind of a parallel from the Blue Book.

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Subsequent to that he made some claims that he had received pieces of the UFOs for investigation

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and these are some of the things that perhaps we can explore with Jim Smith.

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Do you have a strong recollection of the things that your father was into, Jim Smith?

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I remember in 1950 I was seven years old. He was the eldest of three.

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My interest was peripheral right up until the time of his death in 62 because kids were involved

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in a lot of other activities every now and again.

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We'd poke in and see what was going on when he was up to.

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We'd spend a lot of time in research and he'd be away at various establishments where he had facilities

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to do things. Sometimes he'd take us kids with him and sometimes not.

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We had peripheral interest in the little things that would pop up that we'd remember.

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Many times they do remember blue military cars pulling up to the house and leaving packages

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of things were into metallurgical analysis.

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We'd ask them what they were and they said they were chunks that identified things

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that the military either shot down or found.

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Unidentified things? Or did he actually use the word flying saucers?

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Yes, on a couple of instances. I remember packages on the sides of a loaf of bread coming in.

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The box would contain a chunk of metal that he'd been told that the Air Force had shot

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the chunk off of a flying saucer. He'd already done some analysis of it.

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I would like him to have a go at it too.

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Was this the American Air Force or Canadian Air Force?

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I don't remember what color the plane was but it came from the stage when it was delivered to the house.

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So it came from the states? Yes, that's what I was looking for.

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On more than one occasion there were these pieces that were sent to them?

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On several occasions. They'd be of different sizes and there was no regularity to it at all.

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He'd send them away for analysis and try to cut pieces off of them and do it as well.

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Some of those pieces you were saying some came in the mail, some came by military vehicle?

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Yes.

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So there was a number of them that were arriving.

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You actually saw some of these pieces as well, did you?

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Oh yes. I told him when he was talking to Mark, I think he was in there.

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How old would you have been then?

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Well, I was 17, in the high age group.

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Did you get an opportunity to handle any of them? How would you know what was an unusual piece of metal that gave you...

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I got to handle a few of them. One was a chunk about the size of a brick.

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A semi-circular shape. A very smooth metal except where the jacket edges were that had been disconnected from whatever it belonged to.

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It was not quite heavy in terms of its size.

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He had analysis done about it when I remember seeing that particular analysis.

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She'd come back and there were a few things in there that they're not found on this planet that were on an adepto bottle.

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Oh really?

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One of them was that they were a high, dense-walled steel and whatever else goes into it.

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So presumably that paperwork was secret and he wouldn't have kept any copies of the analysis.

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I don't know where it had gone.

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All of the artifacts or all of these materials I think had been returned at some particular point in time?

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Yeah, I even said in the back.

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That's unfortunate. Wouldn't it be nice to have one?

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He probably cut off a cubic inch or something or hang onto that.

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That was to where it's ultimately destination was.

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He did make the comment once in an open program that he sent them back to an authority that was higher than the U.S. Air Force.

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Words for that effect. He was asked, did this go back to the U.S. Air Force? No. Did it go back to the CIA? No.

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I grew much higher than that.

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But he never did reveal the source for high-witness over time.

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No, no. One can only surmise about that and take a stab in the dark and say perhaps in J-12.

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That was a possibility.

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Yeah, well, we'll have your money again.

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That's in the dark now.

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Now, Jim, did he mention that he was shown bodies at one point or something?

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Yeah, on one of the times when he was in the States a lot, hardly due to his work as a superintendent radio regulation.

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He had to deal with frequency allocation channels, radio and that sort of business.

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We frequently had committees in the States when they were working out joint allocations, for example.

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And on several occasions he played it off to be shown things on this line.

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That was pretty well under the Efficient Secrets Act he told us.

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Harder when he, just before he passed away in 62, he felt the act couldn't get him any more than that.

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I did ask him these, yes, he was on the bodies.

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And he had several connections with the refiring military folks, if I remember correctly.

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One of them was Rear Admiral Knowles, I believe.

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Ah, yes, yeah, we were at Knowles on many occasions.

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He was with the Justice and the Evil Intelligence.

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So there was opportunity there for this type of thing to be legitimate.

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He was told these things were there.

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It would have been interesting to be a sly on the wall of those social gatherings.

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He wouldn't believe it.

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Did he describe them at all?

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Not that I can recall, except the descriptions that had sort of been out and about were very accurate.

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The descriptions that were out and about were fairly accurate.

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We had descriptions of braids and that kind of thing.

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I think their descriptions were smallish.

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I don't know about that, it's very coloring.

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I don't remember a lot of those details.

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I just really didn't satisfy my curiosity that he had seen them and that they were real.

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As you were growing up there, Jim, and say, hitting the adolescent ages, you know, the 14, 15, 16,

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how are you feeling about all of this?

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Quite interested and quite proud.

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I think that here's, my dad and a group of other people doing some research and something that was really strange and different.

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At that time, we were looking for a boogie man under every rock.

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Any unusual kind of thinking was not changed the gray besides black or white.

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That's just the way it was at that time.

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Many people came and reported sightings and it evolved that there was a flying saucer club.

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We tended to meet once a month in our basement and it drew people from all over the place.

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It became more better known than anybody from politics to anybody who had seen something unusual would come and share the experiences.

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We're talking with Jim Smith, the son of Wilbur Rockhouse Smith.

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Also on the line with us is a regular monthly contributing editor, Pamiro Pompani.

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In studio with me is our weekly contributing editor, Dave Furlough.

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Dave and I were talking during the commercial break and Dave just said, this is like Jesse and Jesse Marcel Jr.,

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senior and junior, and the stuff that your dad is being sent.

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It's a mental things that are heavier than they should be when you look at them.

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Your dad is seen, claimed to have seen alien bodies.

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It's mind-boggling when you consider that all of this is non-existent.

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UFOs don't exist officially at the official statement.

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Someone called in the control room a few moments ago and said, does Jim believe in flying saucers?

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Yes, I do. I've seen a number of them.

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Some of them quite up close.

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At our home when this flying saucer club met in the basement, there were basement windows.

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On many occasions there would be small monitor saucers looking in the window.

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You have to give this thing two opens going on.

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In terms of size, it would be 30, 36 inches across and it would be on a foot thick, rather looking like a jelly donut.

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I came out of the steps out of the front porch one evening just after dark and came down the front steps

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sitting on the above three feet off the front lawn, where it could look in the window and monitor what was going on.

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We sort of stood there and looked at each other for 20 or 30 seconds or so and then it just took off straight up.

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The grass underneath it was virtually completely sterile for the next 10 years.

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Nothing would grow to this great patch.

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Similarly in the trees at the back of the side of the house again with access to a window.

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Our neighbors used to complain, Smith keep your saucers, your old trees, because these things would sit up there and then

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virtually burn all of the leaves and branches around them.

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They would get a great dead clump and a hole in the middle of it.

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Two or three trees and access to windows.

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I've seen a number of those.

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So in other words, the UFO club that was discussing UFOs was being observed by UFOs.

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I remember Betty Hill having that kind of experience.

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Don't know if you recall the story of Betty, but he killed a fork and he had a big stomach.

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He gave it to her and later on she would have it.

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You could say that nature indicated that there would be objects or something up in the sky inside of the building where it would be.

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The small size is interesting.

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I've heard reports of small size.

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Well, full fighters for one.

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Second World War, bombers were flying from Britain over to Europe, from the bomb.

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There were these little disc shaped objects that flew in and out.

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In fact, they became such a regular occurrence that gunners used to warm up their guns by shooting at these things.

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Jim, your dad had a sighting, did he not? Back in the 50s?

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There were so many to be heard on that I can't recall.

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Why?

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What I don't understand is why a lot of these stories haven't come out before.

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I mean, not stories, but a lot of these events, the Flying Social Club, Dave and I are sitting here with our eyebrows raised at one another.

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We haven't heard this stuff before.

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Well, I talked a little bit about it in the UFO files.

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They were called the boys from Topside.

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Discussed his sighting actually.

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Now, that's how it was in 1963, I believe it was, reported with this.

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And we talked about the alien bodies.

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Yeah, you're sure.

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The title for the new book, Palm Arrow, is Keep the Sources in Your Own Damn Tree.

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Yeah, just by way of background, Jim, your dad's got some engineering awards for his work.

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He grew up when radio was growing up and held a number of patents from broadcast equipment.

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He received awards from the Canadian Association of Broadcasters for his work in radio engineering, keeping everybody honest in the Western Hemisphere.

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On the one hand, as far as official business concerned, he's done all of these wonderful things for the media that we're on now, but on the other hand, he's a saucer hand.

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It would seem to me, yes?

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Yes, this was all of the interest he had in saucers was strictly on his own time.

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Yeah, he was an engineer, therefore, concerned as to how he would make things go.

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So his research dealt with trying to figure out the propulsion system, right?

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And he did a lot of work with magnets, and he got it working, his final experiments.

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And I saw those on a laboratory level, he was able to put in his ordinary cheap clock in the apparatus, fire it up, depending on the direction it was spinning.

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He would lose time or gain time, and also with the weights and balances of these things later, or heavier.

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And it didn't seem to matter whether it was in the freezer or the oven or anything.

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I saw scientists that had been controlled experiments, because that's what scientists and engineers do.

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And he got the thing to work, so he was able to prove that, yes, using magnetic fields, these things could function.

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And those experiments are interesting.

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I remember talking to Jim, I said there was some word out of the Tampere University in Finland where they were doing experiments that were of a very similar nature that Wilbur was working on,

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where they had superconducting magnets rotating spheres and such, and it was lighter above them.

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NASA has picked up on that work, and as far as I know, they're continuing to.

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And they're trying to figure out a way of, I guess, shielding against gravity, to put it one way, they don't play back, they try to shift gravity,

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but shield against it so that whatever is above the shield is not affected by the gravity.

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Well, that work was designed to show that gravity is a variable, and apparently time is not a constant either.

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And the saucers could function by adjusting the gravity field on this planet so that they in fact fall away from it.

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And when that occurs, they can also alter the time, so time becomes meaningless, whether it's a dependent variable.

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So the saucer falls away from the particular planet, that's whatever speed you'd like.

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I want to go back to the flying saucer club from Holland, Jim Smith.

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The people that were there, were they sort of people from around the corner?

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Were they flying saucer reachers?

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Were they civil servants?

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Military was a full, across the full spectrum of the kinds of people who are popular on our planet.

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It started with just a few people who had seen the sighting and wanted to talk to somebody about it.

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That had built a questionnaire kind of thing that he had posted out to people.

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We read the press or who had heard the radio or something, and they completed the questionnaire and sent it back,

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and they could try to separate the week from the shafts.

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But over the years, people would say, read the city, they heard about it, who's going to talk,

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and they'd come and attend the meeting.

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There's not regularity that they knew it existed.

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There were everybody from pilots to housewives to servants, a full spectrum.

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Sometimes the same people would be there, but there were always new ones coming in.

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Mike Woods sent an email. He asked, was official Ottawa the Prime Minister's office

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over the Department of National Defense being advised about the UFO Club?

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Any indication that the U.S. got answers and sat on it?

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In terms of the club, there was nothing secret about it.

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It was public. They published a little newsletter that just distributed amongst those who wanted it,

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passed it on to their friends. It was very informal and anybody could come and attend.

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I know there were Harsian people in attendance on many occasions.

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As far as other military people there, for whatever reason, some were military pilots who had sightings,

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and they just wanted to pass that on and see if anybody could offer any explanations.

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There were others who came and sat and just watched them.

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But that was a very informal social thing.

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Was everybody known to your dad who came or were there strangers there who might have also been on or in the meeting?

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There were not many strangers that introduced themselves to the door.

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It was an official club meeting I'd like to attend. Everybody was welcome.

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If I recall, Wilbert was quite open with everything.

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That may have been one of the problems that they could be faced when he was conducting his UFO work in the mid-50s.

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A lot of the information was getting out to the press.

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The press was blowing it up, making the headlines, and I guess that got into a little bit of hot water with his own departments.

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Yes, that would be a fair assumption.

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I know they were all meetings were very old.

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Jim, was any of the documentation and what have you that your father gathered, like the questionnaire that you alluded to earlier?

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Do you have any of that?

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After death, there were a number of other people in the club who had been helping with research who attempted to carry on.

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And they did continue to do research for another year or two.

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We're talking a core group of maybe four or five people.

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And then they dissipated and went to separate ways or ran into Stonewalls and couldn't go any further because only two of them had engineering backgrounds.

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And a lot of the files, things about the research nature,

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not for us while keeping them at our home anymore because we were involved.

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So they were all transferred out to the people who were doing the research.

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And as you know, as time goes by, things disappear.

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So I would say that with respect to the questionnaire,

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and the number of those types of documents they are available in the National Archives,

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because he actually provided those to the Project Second Story Committee that Peter Millman was running.

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And they used those questionnaires the few times when I stressed the word few,

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when they went out to investigate and interrogate or talk to witnesses.

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But it was mostly Wilbert's work that went into the development of those tools that they were using.

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I want to bring a call right on this.

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This is John joining us on CFRB 1010.

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A question.

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Paul Merrill alluded to the fact that the UFO program,

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according to the U.S. government, was a couple of levels higher than the H-bomb or atomic program back in the 40s.

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What troubles me is the cavalier treatment of the UFO material that was brought to the house or sent by mail,

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which doesn't really add up to me.

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In fact, I couldn't see them sending secrets to a scientist by mail as opposed to having them hand delivered.

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I can't expand on it very much of the fact that they were delivered by mail or in person.

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Sometimes the easiest way is the most obvious.

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I don't know the hierarchy of who considers what to be super secret and important.

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The material is coming through.

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I get the wrong mail all the time.

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If I get something in a mail and I look at it and it's some sort of metal, and I say,

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wow, this is very strange, and it goes lost in the mail, which a lot of the stuff does.

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John raises a fair point that I've discussed that one I've laid back in the book,

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because it troubled me as well, Jim Smith knows this, but I was coming around to some of the conclusions that some of those fragments were not genuine.

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And I just go into some of this as the reasons why I believe that.

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And it relates back to the information that Wilbur was provided from Sir Bucker,

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what he was told that they were real, etc.

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The impression I was getting was that if you wanted to have someone discredit himself,

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if you had just given him true and accurate information,

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it might be to start sending this type of bogus material and know that he will eventually probably go public with it at some point.

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And if he does, the media could grab onto that and try to discredit the individual for later on in time.

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People would look back at that and raise exactly the same question John has raised and say,

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well, geez, I don't buy that, and so therefore all of it was not true.

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Having looked at all the material, I concluded that the information he got from Sir Bucker was the accurate information.

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Selling what happened after that, particularly with respect to the pieces,

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I think there was something else going on behind it.

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There may have been some which is a piece of come true, I don't know, but I would think that some of them were not.

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One last question. In relation to having been told about the alien bodies or had any alien bodies,

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and he mentioned that basically, I guess, would be on his deathbed,

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yeah, did you get the sense of credibility from what he was saying to you?

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Yeah, in fact, maybe we should clear up something right here,

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because there have been some stories about that your father had brain cancer,

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and there was a logical extension that, well, maybe this was affecting his mind,

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well, in fact, he did not have brain cancer, am I correct?

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No, he died of cancer in the Lord's Hall.

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His faculties were all there, other than that, the problem he was basically.

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But I just hope that Jim can give me a sense of where the situation was when his father broached the subject to him.

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Was it in a one-on-one situation? What did he say to you? How did he come across with it?

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What it is in terms of the body?

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How was the subject broached?

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Okay, in a one-on-one situation.

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That's not an isolated incident.

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The involvement in saucers would occupy many evenings on the telephone with questionnaires,

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and people would come and etc., etc.

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And so the story about the bodies, we had heard that, and we'd asked,

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and when he had come back from the conference, he said,

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well, I can't hear you saying anything because it's under the official secret act,

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and so, okay, there we are, so we left that alone, and life goes on.

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He was 19 when he died, so I'd researched for about nine or ten months ago,

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and it was in that time that we'd started sitting and chatting.

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As much as a 19-year-old can, and he's got four things on the go all at the same time.

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And I'd asked him, and I'd asked him,

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remember the bodies that you had seen, could you say anything?

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And he said, yes, yes, that's true, I did see those.

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Well, that's not as my curiosity as I said earlier, so...

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Thanks for your cold talk.

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So, the hero who has been making reference to his book,

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the UFO files, the Canadian connection exposed,

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and you can get that information via the strange days,

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indeed, webpage at the virtually strange.net website,

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and just click your way through UFOs to the program,

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and then click on Miro's name and tonight's listing,

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or any of the other nights that he's on, and it'll take you to his website.

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And you can get those things where we could sit and talk for two or three hours about this.

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Is there anything else that we need to nail tonight on Miro?

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I think we've pretty much covered the essence.

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Jim, I don't know about you, from your perspective, I can think of nothing.

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I'm responding to questions.

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Understood. Dave, I have one question for you, Jim.

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You said you were one of three siblings.

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Yes.

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Did your father discuss this with your brothers and sisters?

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Well, we were all in the family, and yes, he would.

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My brother's three years younger, and my sister's nine years younger, so...

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A day as intrigued by UFOs as your dad was, and you are?

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We're all on the periphery because we're not engineers,

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and because of the things to do as well,

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and so it occupies a portion of our time, and there's an interest there,

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no doubt about it.

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We don't know where to proceed or what to do.

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Yeah.

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Dad's book, The New Science, I have four printings done of that,

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and it was sort of my responsibility to deal with that book for those who wrote for it.